Brings art closer
LARTA.NL
Brings art closer
LARTA.NL
Brengt kunst dichterbij
LARTA.NL
When you contact the Passionate Artist to become a member, we ask you to write a piece, submit photos, etc. The Passionate Artist posts the work himself. You can send an email at any time of the month to adjust your advertisement, add events, etc.
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When you contact the Passionate Artist to become a member, we ask you to write a piece, submit photos, etc. The Passionate Artist posts the work himself. You can send an email at any time of the month to adjust your advertisement, add events, etc.
We will adjust this for you as soon as possible, ideally the same day.
INTERVIEWS
What moves an artist?
What is art for artists?
How did they begin?
What tips would they like to share?
Aukje Nauta
'We’re all imperfect. So why do we pretend to be perfect?'
Aukje is a psychologist, researcher, writer and, more recently, a theatre maker. In her theatrical lectures, she combines scientific insights with personal stories, humour and moments of self-disclosure. Her central theme is shame. Because, as she believes, the very things we feel ashamed of can also become a source of connection.
Introduce yourself to our LARTA readers.
My name is Aukje, I’m 59 years old, and I have two adult daughters, aged 33 and 30. I studied psychology in Groningen and later specialised in conflict management within organisations. For my PhD, I researched how people deal with conflict.
I have a partner, and that’s where things get a little complicated: he has a wife, whom he is married to. There’s nothing secret about it; everyone in our immediate circle knows. Perhaps this also touches on the theme of shame, as it can bring up feelings of shame. But we’ll come back to that later.
After completing my PhD, I continued working in academia for many years. I then joined TNO, where I found a great balance between research and practice. I continued publishing and eventually became an endowed professor at the University of Amsterdam. After my time at TNO, I worked as a consultant for several years before setting up my own consultancy. I advised organisations on how people interact with one another, how they can continue to learn and grow, and, above all, how to navigate conflict constructively.
Throughout my career, I’ve always combined two sides of my work: research and practice, academia and consultancy. That combination remains the common thread running through everything I do.
When did theatre come into your life?
It actually came into my life through my current partner. He runs a training consultancy and has a background in theatre. He trained as a theatre director and has created productions with homeless people, both in the Netherlands and in the United States. He also performs on stage himself.
When I was still mainly giving lectures based on my scientific background, he started giving me advice on how to incorporate stories into them. As a scientist, you tend to focus on facts and figures: what percentage of people experience or do something, what research shows and which theories explain it. While this is intellectually interesting, it can also feel quite abstract. If you really want to move people and spark something within them, stories and emotions are often much more powerful.
I already loved giving lectures, and my partner gradually became my unofficial director. We discovered that we really enjoyed working together. Theatre offered me a new way to share my scientific knowledge with an audience, particularly through a format known as a theatre lecture — something you’re seeing more and more of in theatres these days.
״If you really want to move people and spark something within them, stories and emotions are often far more powerful than facts and theories. ״
- Aukje Nauta.
What did you want to talk about?
Shame. I’ve been interested in dialogue in the workplace for a long time. What often prevents people from having truly open and honest conversations with one another is shame.
During the COVID pandemic, I wrote a book about this called Nooit meer doen alsof (Never Pretend Again). After that, I started giving a lot of lectures about shame. However, I noticed that organisations aren’t particularly quick to hire someone for a talk simply called ‘shame’. They prefer to call it ‘psychological safety’, a term that has by now almost become management jargon.
But I wanted to talk about shame, plain and simple.
In the end, I decided to approach it in my own way. Not just as a corporate speaker telling organisations what they could do better, but as a theatre maker bringing a subject to life in a personal and accessible way for a wider audience.
That’s the journey I’ve made: talking about shame in my own way. Not just for people in organisations, but for people in general.
What is your mission?
I want to bring science and storytelling together and make sure that people leave differently than they arrived. When people understand one another better through honest and open conversations, a sense of connection emerges.
We often hesitate to share the things we feel ashamed of. But when we do, and the other person responds by saying, “I know exactly what you mean”, something meaningful happens. A genuine connection is created.
Of course, I don’t always find this easy myself. It’s an ongoing journey for all of us.
Why is shame such an important topic?
Shame is an important emotion. It is the fear of rejection, and above all, a social and moral emotion. We need shame to function as part of a group. For example, you don’t just pass gas during a meeting, nor do you treat others disrespectfully. If you do, you risk being excluded from the group.
Shame helps us maintain social decorum: it encourages us to behave appropriately and stay within certain social norms. Just as physical pain protects us from bodily harm, shame helps us survive socially. It is a form of social pain that can be incredibly intense.
But shame also has another side. Opposite the fear of rejection lies the desire for connection. In a way, they are two sides of the same coin.
״Shame civilises us: it encourages us to behave appropriately and stay within certain social norms. Just s physical pain protects us from bodily harm, shame helps us survive socially."
- Aukje Nauta.
When does shame become a problem?
Shame encourages us to adapt to a certain extent, but sometimes the armour becomes far too heavy. You find yourself constantly wondering: what can I share, and what should I keep to myself?
We all want to show the best version of ourselves. You can never completely reveal yourself emotionally; we all have secrets and things we would rather keep private. This constant balancing act between what we show and what we hide plays a major role in how we interact with one another.
Sometimes, however, it can become exhausting. You constantly have to keep up appearances and can no longer truly be yourself. This can be stressful, especially when you pretend to know and be capable of everything, while deep down you're constantly afraid of being found out.
How do you encourage people to reflect on this?
For example, I sometimes use a dialogue exercise called The Confession. I ask people: When, and in front of whom, have you failed to be the person you would like to be? When people share examples in small groups of around six, they can then discuss the patterns they notice and how they might break them. The aim is to create an environment where people can interact with one another more openly and honestly.
Ideally, I combine a theatre lecture with a dialogue session afterwards. After all, when you open up about yourself, it often encourages others to do the same. That’s why I also share personal experiences during my lectures and theatre performances.
For example, I talk about the time I was a member of the Social and Economic Council (SER) in the Netherlands. During a meeting, someone suddenly mentioned the ‘macroeconomic stable discount rate’. I had absolutely no idea what that meant. But I didn't dare ask either, for fear that people might think I wasn't knowledgeable enough.
By sharing these kinds of stories, I help put people at ease and make it easier for them to open up about their own moments of shame and embarrassment.
״Opening up about yourself often encourages others to do the same. That's why I also share embarrassing personal stories during my performances.״
- Aukje Nauta.
That must take quite a bit of courage, I imagine. How did you become so open and confident?
Step by step. When you try something and discover that you’re not rejected for it, you gradually dare to reveal a little more the next time.
In my book, for example, I also write about my open relationship and all kinds of embarrassing situations and mistakes I’ve experienced myself. Initially, I found that quite daunting. When the book first came out, I actually lost four nights of sleep over it. I thought: No one will ever take me seriously again. I’ll never get another serious consultancy assignment. But that turned out to be completely untrue. If anything, the opposite happened.
We often allow ourselves to be guided by shame when there’s really no need to. At the same time, you have to be careful not to go too far in the other direction. If you share absolutely everything, it becomes a form of emotional incontinence. It’s always a matter of finding the right balance and knowing how much to share.
״When you try something new and realise you're not rejected for it, you dare to open up a little more next time.״
- Aukje Nauta.
What happens when people let their guard down?
People often experience it as liberating. You can simply be yourself, and when others see someone being authentic, they feel more comfortable being themselves too.
We live in a world that places a strong emphasis on achievement and performance. Yet beneath all that pressure lies an enormous desire for authenticity. We’re all imperfect, but we often pretend to be perfect. And that is incredibly exhausting.
Younger people, in particular, struggle with social comparison. When you’re young, you’re still figuring out what you want and who you are, both in your career and in life. You never feel quite good enough, because there’s always someone with a better body, a nicer home, a more successful career or a more exciting life.
My message is simple: stop constantly comparing yourself to others.
״We’re all imperfect, yet we often pretend to be perfect. And that is incredibly exhausting.״
- Aukje Nauta.
What do you think we should get better at?
To dare to deviate from the norm. If someone goes against a social norm but isn’t hurting anyone, why should we judge them for it?
Who is your theatre lecture aimed at?
Actually, it’s for everyone. What I find particularly interesting is how diverse the audience is, especially in terms of age.
People my age come along and bring their adult children, but there are also people in their twenties and thirties who attend with their parents and even their grandparents. I really value that interaction between different generations. For teenagers, though, it might still be a little too cringe.
Research shows that teenagers and people in their twenties experience the most shame. When you talk about the things they feel ashamed of on stage, it can open up an opportunity for them to discuss these topics with their parents afterwards. And that can help strengthen their relationship.
What kind of feedback do you get from people afterwards?
People sometimes tell me that they had wonderful conversations on their way home after the performance. One woman told me that she continued talking with her son, who was in his twenties, when they got home. Some of his friends were there too.
Before the show, she had thought to herself: I’m actually not ashamed of anything. But during the performance, she realised that she did, in fact, experience shame. She shared this with her son and his friends. After that, all the young men started opening up about the things they felt ashamed of too.
I love that. Sharing shame is contagious. When one person dares to be vulnerable, it creates space for others to do the same.
When I hear stories like that after a performance, it makes me incredibly happy. That’s exactly what I hope to achieve: creating space for meaningful, open and honest conversations.
“Where does your interest in human connection come from?”
It actually goes back to my teenage years. I found it incredibly difficult to connect with other people. I had all kinds of hobbies: I danced, did gymnastics and played music. Every year in Drachten, a large-scale production was staged by an amateur theatre director who was also the director of the local theatre. I was part of the dance group. Everyone there was very extroverted, whereas I was shy.
At one point, someone said to me: “You’re always so quiet.” It struck right at my most vulnerable spot. She probably didn’t mean anything by it, but she had touched on exactly what I struggled with most: I was shy and didn’t really know how to behave in a group.
I remember thinking: I want to learn how to do that. That’s why I decided to study psychology. I wanted to understand how people behave in groups. I was always the observer: Who is the leader? Who is popular, and who isn’t? Why does someone get bullied?
Because I found it so difficult to navigate social situations myself, I became fascinated by understanding group dynamics. Eventually, I turned that interest into my profession.
Perhaps that’s also a way of turning your shame into a source of strength: taking something you struggle with personally, trying to understand it, and ultimately making it your life's work.
How does it feel to be on stage now?
It’s always nerve-racking. You never have complete control over it. Sometimes I become too self-conscious and find myself listening to my own words as I speak. But most of the time, especially during the premiere, it feels as though the audience lifts me up. That’s when I feel completely in my element, fully present in the moment.
What is your most important piece of advice for aspiring theatre makers or people who struggle with a fear of failure?
Don’t tell yourself: I have to succeed. Focus on enjoying the experience instead. Connecting with the audience helps with that. Just like you, the people in the room want to have a good evening.
Something that really helped me was a TED Talk I once watched, in which a singer-songwriter talked about writing a song about his fear of singing out of tune. He deliberately included high notes that he couldn’t reach, so he would actually end up singing off-key. By starting his concerts with that song, his fear of failure would disappear like snow in the sun.
You have to allow yourself to fail. You need to shift your mindset from performing to playing. That’s also why I organise try-outs. After all, a try-out doesn’t have to be perfect.
״You have to give yourself permission to fail. Shift your mindset from performing to playing.״
- Aukje Nauta.
How do you stay so playful and authentic?
By never taking the beaten path. I’ve never thought: what is expected of someone in my position? When I started working, I joined a consultancy while also wanting to pursue a PhD. After that, I continued combining different roles throughout my career: academia and practice, research and consultancy. Now I combine science with theatre.
I don’t want to be put in a box. I think that also comes from curiosity. At the same time, you do need a certain level of security to give yourself that freedom. I haven’t simply given everything up and thought: I’ll just see what happens. I’ve always taken relatively safe leaps. You need a certain baseline of job and financial security to give yourself the freedom to experiment and play.
I’m now at a rather privileged stage in my career. My lectures and consultancy work provide me with a sufficient income, which means that theatre doesn’t have to support me financially just yet. As a result, making money isn’t my primary motivation. Instead, I can focus on doing the things I enjoy and find meaningful. If money had been my main driving force, I probably would have pursued a very different career.
How did the idea for the theatre lecture come about?
Actually, I didn’t come up with the idea for the theatre lecture myself. I was once approached by the University of the Netherlands, an organisation that produces videos and podcasts in which academics explain their fields of expertise to a wide audience in an accessible way.
All fourteen Dutch universities were involved. Academics gave short talks of around twenty minutes, which were then linked together and introduced by a comedian. I travelled to theatres across the Netherlands with the University of the Netherlands for an entire season. There was a group of fourteen academics, and I eventually got to share my story six times.
I absolutely loved it. That’s when I thought: this is what I want to focus on. I’m going to pursue theatre lectures.
How did you experience the process of writing your book?
I’ve written several books, but Nooit meer doen alsof (Never Pretend Again) was my first book aimed at a wider audience. I found the process quite intense. You have to find your own writing style, choose the right examples and create a strong structure.
At the same time, I find the challenging parts particularly interesting because they push you to step outside your comfort zone.
In 2019, I came up with the idea of writing a book about shame. I started by developing a lecture on the subject, and then moved on to writing the book. In March 2020, when the COVID pandemic brought my entire schedule to a standstill, I finally had the time to really focus on writing. The book was published in August 2021.
What does a theatre lecture actually look like?
It’s not particularly theatrical. The format is actually quite simple: there’s some lighting and a little music at the beginning. Other than that, I mainly tell stories. It’s somewhere between a lecture and theatre, with elements of cabaret.
I talk about scientific research and bring it to life through other people’s stories and some embarrassing personal revelations of my own. Every now and then, I also do an exercise with the audience.
In many theatre productions, there’s a fourth wall: the audience simply watches what happens on stage. In my performances, I actually want to break down that wall. I want to connect with the audience. It also feels much more natural for a lecture-style performance.
Has the theatre lecture become an established genre yet?
No, not really. And that’s exactly what I love about it. Is a theatre lecture an academic lecture by a professor, where you mainly get facts and figures? Or is it more like a theatre performance? How many stories do you tell? How much humour do you use? There’s still plenty of room to experiment with the format.
Humour is particularly important to me. Shame almost always relates to something painful. We often find it easier to deal with pain when we can create a little distance from it. Humour can help us do that.
When something terrible happens, people sometimes make jokes about it. Just look at political events: cartoons and memes appear almost immediately. Sometimes we need humour to help us cope with suffering and pain.
What do you hope people will take away from your performance?
I hope they’ll feel inspired to bring more warmth and understanding into their own lives and the relationships around them. I want people to be entertained while also learning something along the way. But ultimately, what I hope most is that they start talking to one another.
That they go home thinking: maybe I don’t have to keep hiding parts of myself all the time. Maybe I can allow myself to be a little more myself. And maybe tomorrow, I’ll dare to tell someone something I actually feel ashamed of.
Because ultimately, that’s what it’s all about for me: connection.
Curious to find out more?
Aukje is taking her theatre lecture on tour. You can easily purchase tickets via her website: www.aukjenauta.nl. Why not bring your daughter, mother, brother or sister along? Experiencing the performance together can be a wonderful starting point for a meaningful conversation.
About LARTA.art
Nooit meer doen alsof
In Nooit meer doen alsof (Never Pretend Again), Aukje explores how shame can be a powerful and positive emotion. Drawing on scientific research, she reveals the beauty of shame and shows how you can use this emotion as a compass to guide you towards what you truly want. Reframe your shame and find the courage to turn your deepest desires into reality.
